Levan property under contract; revised floor plans

Today we accepted a counteroffer on a 53-acre piece of land south of Levan, Utah, up a canyon. So finally, after making half a dozen offers on various parcels, we're finally under contract and can focus on a specific plot of land to make it work.



It's a beautiful spot of land, up a mountainous canyon climbing eastward, dotted with large Juniper trees. Shrub oaks surround the creek bed that runs through its narrow valley. The south side (north-facing slope) is arrayed in Juniper trees and has a rock outcropping that runs the length of the property, adding an artistic element to the land. The north side is more sparse, mostly dirt (shale), due to the sun hitting it more directly, bringing out its desert attributes.



About 20% of the property is suitable for putting buildings on (e.g our home, guesthouse, walipinis, outbuildings, etc. for the Safe Haven Villages community); the rest is too steep.

We found a spot in the East side of the property, on a south-facing slope where valley gives rise to the northern ridge, providing a view on the south of the tree-filled, rock-outcropping.



The property is quite remote, with the closest neighbor being ~3 miles away, and the tiny town of Levan (pop. 688) being ~9.5 miles away. Nephi, population ~5400, is about 15 minutes north; and the Utah Valley with all modern conveniences begins about another 15 minutes north of that.

I'm not a hermit by nature, so the idea of living so far removed from civilization was not attractive to me. Those in the community project assure me that once we get a property and start building that others will join in and we won't be alone for long. In a scenario of societal melt-down, being out of the cities is a good idea, but neighbors are also important for helping each other out. So we'll be anxious to get some close neighbors in soon who are likeminded.

Here's video I shot a couple of weeks ago.



We went to see what the property would be like in the middle of winter. Just the last ¼ mile would need to be plowed by us to keep it accessible.



We'll have to buy some water rights. A friend who drills wells said the water in this area is excellent. However, we're hoping that in our home we'll be able to get enough from rainwater capture to handle all our household needs, circulating the grey water, and using compost toilets.


Revised Floor Plan

In launching this first Safe Haven Villages community, one of the SHV members suggested that we get rid of the loft in our great room and put in a second floor there to be used as a community center. We'll call it "guest quarters".



In addition to retreats, classes, and wellness sessions, people coming to help build the community could stay there temporarily as well, speeding up the build-out of the village.

We moved the storage room down next to the garage, making the second floor space that much larger for the community center.

We also decided to get rid of the solarium along the south side to cut back in building costs. We can add that in later. This required us putting a hall through the office area to get to our master bedroom, which used to be accessed through the solarium.

Randy Tolbert suggested that we put the solar thermal array on the hill behind the home, with a drain-back system, rather than trying to space the panels between the second floor windows and connecting them in a drainable set-up.

Torg expects to be finished with the house drawings by next week some time.



Next step is all the regulatory hoop jumping, getting approvals and permits to begin building. Tim Hall said it took him a year to get his building permit for the home he showed me in Hawaii. Hopefully the hard work by others, being referenced in our application, will speed up the time it takes us.

Seeking help on budgeting renewable energy component of our home

Hi guys,

I'm wondering if some of you could give me a ballpark estimate of how much each component would cost for our off-grid Renewable Energy system. Also, any recommendations for vendors would be appreciated as well.
- SW Wind turbine (Skystream 3.7 or Air Breeze)
- PV panels (~1.5 kw)
- Solar Thermal drainback system for our radiant floor heating system
- Radiant flooring through 75% of first floor and ~40% of second floor
- Battery backup 48-volt system
- Four AC inverters for four zones (rather than whole house on one inverter)
- Other energy device requirements (Charge Controllers, Combiner Box, DC Disconnect, etc)
- Wiring for electrical, including a run to an external shed for possible (likely) FE device that itself could power the home.
- Three on-demand water heaters that will top off the solar thermal hot water for sinks, showers, laundry, kitchen.
- Free Energy device.

We're going with DC or LED lighting. DC fridge and freezer. The house is going to be wired AC, with one DC run to each room. As for fridge and freezer, we've been told: "This is very costly and offers little savings with inverters today all over 96% efficient".

The house as planned is around 1600 square feet and will have a solarium running the length of the south end. The home is for 2 adults, 4 kids; home school; work from home (home most the time).



The next-to-final draft of the floor plans are available here




Note: There was a wrong assumption in drawing this floor plan -- that the second floor was tapered in from the first (per an earlier design) -- but that is no longer the case. The second floor has the same size as the first. The domed arch doesn't begin unti 4 feet up on the second floor.

We need these budget numbers by 1/11 if possible.

Feel free to respond via sterlingda {at} pureenergysystems.com I plan to post the budget on my site.

Other comments/suggestions are welcome as well.

This is going to be my home, and I'd like it to reflect some of the best thinking and resources available from a renewable energy point of view.

Thx

========================

Some feedback


on January 06, 2010 11:41 AM Mountain, Jim Dunn wrote:


Sterling – I agree with Rich. George on the wind turbine – long payback, mostly sizzle.

Also- go with Evac. Tubes and Glycol, with a large capacity storage tank (200G or more)

The most important thing is selecting a local installer, and working with him on his preferred vendors.

There is no value on having more than one inverter for a 1.5KW PV system. Better to add more PV, like 3-4 KW.

The house is not really that big to justify several ‘flash’ heaters, just locate one close to the main bath and laundry room.

To determine battery sizing, est. the energy used per hour times the number of hours of backup desired X 1.2 for capacity factor (you never want to run the system down below 20% SOS.

Apollo makes the best charge controller. Midnight and Outback make good BOS components.

Start with a budget, and see where your $$ are best spent.

- - - - - - - -


on January 06, 2010 10:11 AM Mountain, Richard P. George, Ph.D. wrote:

I am getting 240 Wp Canadian Solar monocrystalline modules from Canadian Solar for $1.78 per wp plus shipping. We'll be getting the 250 and 260 Wp modules starting in April at the same prices. These are wholesale rates but I probably could get some shipped to you.

Don't waste your money on the wind turbine. Unless if you have a perfect location, solar will be much more cost effective.

You want one inverter setup with more battery storage. Batteries are expensive. I'm going with the Xantrex XW series with 48 volt batteries. This can support 3 inverter

Don't do a drainback system. Do a closed system with glycol in the pipes with a storage tank with a heat exchanger. I like the evacuated tube systems best. Be sure to properly size the storage tank and collection array if you want to use it for both hot water and heating.

Why use three on demand water heaters? Use one central one.

Run the entire system through Peswiki as a business expense depreciated over 5 years so you can get the 30% grant from Treasury

- - - - - - - -


On January 06, 2010 9:26 AM Mountain, Jim Dunn wrote:

Sterling – Not enough info to fully estimate, but here is a rough SWAG:

See costs alongside the items, below – many of your ideas are not practical or cost effective.


From: Sterling D. Allan
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:50 AM
To: Jim Dunn; Richard P. George
Subject: budget for RE for our home


Hi Jim and Richard,

I'm wondering if you could give me a ballpark estimate of how much it would cost to install our off-grid Renewable Energy system

- SW Wind turbine (Skystream 3.7 or Air Breeze) - $15K – ($5k for turbine, $5K for tower, and $4-5K to install)

- PV panels (~1.5 kw) - $9K with inverter

- Solar Thermal drainback system for our radiant floor heating system - $3-6K based on capacity

- Radiant flooring through 75% of first floor and ~40% of second floor - ?? size – could be about $5-10K with tanks, pumps, controls, plumbing

- Battery backup 48-volt system - $300-350/KWH – how much backup do you want ?

- Five AC inverters for five zones (rather than whole house on one inverter) – Why ? Small inverters are expensive @ $.65-.80/W and less efficient, and don’t allow for peak loads

- Other energy device requirements (Power Controllers, etc) Details ??

- Wiring for electrical, including a run to an external shed for possible (likely) FE device that itself could power the home. - $ vary if overhead or buried ? figure $10/Ft.

- Three on-demand water heaters that will top off the solar thermal hot water for sinks, showers, laundry, kitchen. - $1K each for electric ‘flash’ heaters

We're going with DC or LED lighting. DC fridge and freezer. This is very costly and offers little savings with inverters today all over 96% efficient – Why bother with inverters then?

[truncated]

- - - - - -

On January 11, 2010 9:50 PM Hawaii time; Tai Robinson wrote:

Sterling, do you have any plans, drawings or a site lay out I can view. I need to visit your site and get a bit more detail to offer you a quote, or even a ball-park estimate. When are you available to bring me out to your project and take a look?

A SkyStream is about $5,700 and an AirBreeze is about $800. These are 2 totally different machines, one a 1.8kW unit and one a 300watt unit. The towers, wire and installation all depend on location, dirt, length of run, etc.... Schedule 40 pipe for an AirBreeze can be as little as $100, a 32foot monopole tower for a SkyStream is about $6,000 plus delivery. Soil type makes a big difference. I have a guy that might do the engineering evaluation for free because he is slow and bored right now....

A 200 watt PV panel runs about $1,000. Sometimes I can get them for as little as $200 depending on supply, sometimes up to $2,000 for the new ones that are 100% + rating. Again, the installation is the big ? where are they to be mounted? What kind of racks are we to use? Tracking or stationary? how far is the run to the inverter?, or battery charger. There are some great inline, per panel inverters that maximize or even increase the per pannel output that also offer remote monitoring of the system with any computer, from any location in the world. I just bid on a 4kW complete solar system for a Colorado installltion to get their great tax credit and it was about $35,000 total before credit, after credit, the price to the customer was $10,000. Ruffly expect $7 to $11 per watt instaled.

Solar hot water is the most economical system you have mentioned here and should be a top priority. We can simply heat domestic hot water and radiant floors, or we can go further and cool your house and offer refrigeration as well. I can show you a great example on a horse property in Draper that was over built with 3 different temperature storage tanks and overcapacity to add on cooling and refrigeratin later.

How big of a battery back up system are you looking for? How long do you want to run what appliances?? Are you going to be grid connected, or stand alone?

Are you doing 5 houses, or one? A good inverter is about $6,000. I think you are going to want just one, not 5.

Do you want electric water heaters or gas? I would definately reccomend gas. The electric requirement to heat water from PV panels would require much more than 1.5kW system. You would probably want a 20kW array and need to budget $200,000 or so for it. Do you have access to a natural gas line? Or are you going to have propane delivered?

2 electrical systems makes the most sense so you can use DC directly for your LED lighting and then AC for everything else. I would reccomend a regular refrigerator over a DC one. The DC ones are not adequate. You will be much happier with a normal frig and freezer since you want AC anyway....

Give me a call sometime.

--
Tai W. Robinson
Intergalactic
http://www.AmericanFuelVehicles.com

Architectural Drawings Under Way

It’s been a while since I’ve updated you on how things are coming on our sustainable home project.

We've made a few offers on property but still haven't secured a plot.

I've conveyed our drawings to Dr. James Torgeson, who is a member of our Safe Haven Villages project and has agreed to draw up our plans at huge discount. Though not presently licensed, he has several years of experience as an architect. He has a licensed architect and an engineer associate who he can pass the plans by when he's done, to sign off on them.

Below is an excerpt from an email I sent him on Nov. 29.


Hi Torg,

Attached are the two files from 1st and 2nd floor that Susan pulled together [along with] Cheri's and my input on those.



[Let's] use these as the starting point for your architectural drawings.

They are a refinement of what was presented at http://www.allanssustainablehome.com/2009/11/2-floor-paramecium-house-plans-with.html
enlarged [here].

Here are some of the points and principles:

House Plans:

• Susan drew the plans in a rectangle, since that is easier, but the home will arch slightly from east to west. In my earlier drawings, I had the pivot point 100 feet in front of the solarium for scribing the circle/arch of the home.


• The cross section of the home is as described at http://www.allanssustainablehome.com/2009/11/dome-vault-high-tunnel-for-winter.html


• The house interior is 20 feet wide from north to south, between the
  earthbags.


• The backfill along the north side will entirely cover the first floor and go up around 4 feet into the second floor.


• Engineering the walls to withstand the pressure from the backfill will be a key consideration. Vertical cables with anchors; cross-members in interior walls (outside the earth bags?); 45-degree tension anchors for garage?


• The garage entrance will need a retaining wall running East to contain the back fill going up the back side of the home.


• Insulation on roof, then following outside down north wall to below frost line (5'?)


• The Master Bedroom west wall will be rounded.


• The Garage east wall will be square, to allow for a two-car garage opening. This will create some engineering challenges for withstanding the back-fill along the north of the house.


• The east wall of the bedroom and the west wall of the garage will be curved as in the drawing at
  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_obrjUraoDH4/Sv-wEltQmaI/AAAAAAAAACE/ANd1x05b3k8/s1600-h/091114_Allan-Home_peramecium_draft1_jp60.jpg


• I'm flexible on the make-up of the interior walls, seeking for earth-friendly, inexpensive, not too much labor.


• Per your suggestions, we can use TJI's for the second floor, which will protrude out to serve as the solarium ceiling and deck floor.


• We want to do the split stair way in the Great Room, so that there is a landing around half way up, with stairs then going east and west from there, to the kids area and the storage area.


• The smallest opening along the solarium between the windows and the buttresses should not be smaller than 3'


• The door coming in from the garage should be 3'


• French drain around home.


• Rainwater capture -- enough cisterns to hold water through dry spells.


• Frost prevention for footings (along solarium): http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Sterling_Allan


• We ruled out decorative beams through master bedroom and Great Room for reasons of Fung Shui


• All windows and doors need to be of standard size and frame for easy replacement in the case of breakage.


• Nominal EMP proofing, but not to military specs. (needs to be affordable)


• Eaves over all windows, including Solarium, to shield summer sun.


• Adjustable ventilation into second floor rooms for passive air circulation of radiant floor heating on first floor.


• Insulation on floor/ceiling between garage and storage room above it.


• Windows arrangement: at least one good view in all directions of the compass: N (not a problem), S (not a problem), E (from
  M.B.), W (from storage room).

Appliances

• Rocket stove in the living room for the "fireplace". Perhaps have the chimney pass through a seating area before rising out of house. Include a cooking surface. Vertical wood feed if plausible.


• The bedroom bathrooms will be compost in chamber immediately below the toilet, above floor of bathroom.


• The bathroom off the Great Room will need to have a larger chamber under the floor (access through a panel in the floor? or in adjoining floor?)


• Jacuzzi bathtub in master bath


• Wash sink in laundry needs to be separate from graywater system, as this will be the one place in the home we can dump things like paint (cleaning paint brushes), chemicals, etc.


• All tubs also have showers


• DC Freezer in garage, north west side


• Renewable Energy (this is where a lot of the capital expenses will come in)
  
  
  
  • GEET-converted petrol genset: 5 kW for emergency back-up and construction power.
  
  
  • I would like at least a 1000-gallon cistern for the solar thermal mass storage to run through the radiant flooring. This can be housed in the Mechanical room.
  
  
  • During the summer, the solar thermal water tank should be much smaller, just for the hot water needs of the home.
  
  
  • Photovoltaic panels along second floor south-facing. 1.5 kW
  
  
  • Solar Thermal panels along second floor, drain-back system
  
  
  • Wind turbine: http://www.skystreamenergy.com/
    or http://www.windenergy.com/products/whisper_500.htm
    on 45+-foot pole with guy wires.
  
  
  • 48-Volt Battery Bank
  
  
  • Eutectic salts in solarium (3" pvc black tubes mounted on vertical rack) to hold heat during the night. Situated south of garage.
  
  
  • Other renewable energy source likely

Fixtures

• Simple chandelier over landing in Great Room


• Skylights: 2 in Great Room, 1 in master bedroom.


• Ceiling fans: 2 in G.R., 1 in M.B.


• More info coming, e.g. AC v. DC outlets & fixtures.

Finish Considerations

• The doorway to the home will correspond to the entrance from the solarium to the Great Room where the stairs go up. The doorway needs to be made decorative while not greatly impeding the solar gain of the surrounding solarium windows.


• Play room under stairs.


• Post railing up stairs and along 2nd floor stair hallway and along E wall of home school room.


• [Duck foot] flaring at bottom of stairs.


• Floor finish: info pending. No carpet (maybe home school room)? Tile in bathrooms and kitchen. Packed earth
  w/ cement, w/ finish glaze. Wood planks on second floor?


• I'm not sure how we would construct the reading loft in the master bedroom. We're not too set on that, and wouldn't mind nixing it, though it would make for a nice aspect. At a minimum, I would like to be able to build it on later, so we should plan a way to tie in.


• Decorative finish on second floor door and window dormers (different color stucco, with artistic design). Something along the lines of
  http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_obrjUraoDH4/Svo9B2SEiHI/AAAAAAAAAB0/wu_k_w1RXLY/s1600-h/EarthBagBuilding_cover.jpg

END OF 11/29 CORRESPONDENCE TO TORG

Torg is in process of drawing up these details. We've added clarification
to quite a few of those points, and a few changes.

Some key things we changed from the above are:

• The Mechanical Room is moved under the bath/pantry/dining area as a
  basement, with earthbag walls; and the north wall will continue upward from
  the basement wall as an earthbag wall, 20' tall, backfilled, which will be a
  significant engineering feat.


• We've changed the previous "mechanical room" to a "kid's
  office".

Remaining Question

AC or DC Outlets?

One of the key questions at this point is in regard to wiring the house
outlets AC or DC. We definitely plan on doing our lights in DC. The
question is whether to wire our outlets AC or DC. Your informed
suggestions would be welcomed.

The AC route would entail having zones, each with an inverter in the
mechanical room, so that the entire house is not dependent on one inverter.

The DC route would entail having small inverters for those rooms that might
need AC power (essentially every room).

What we're trying to avoid is having to double-wire the home.

Code will require outlets every x feet, and will not allow that to be a
mixture of AC and DC.

I'd be inclined to wire the home AC, with a single run of DC to the office,
the kitchen, the living room, the master bedroom, the garage, and one outlet
upstairs for the kids.

On-Demand Water Heater

We plan on having an on-demand water heater at each point set of use
(bathrooms, laundry, kitchen). Do they make these in DC? We don't
know of any. The AC water heaters draw a lot of current -- as much as a
dryer. Of course they will be heating solar pre-heated water, so the total
amount of energy they draw will be less. Any suggestions in this area?

Flooring

We would like to have a variety of flooring in the home, not including
carpet. I'm wondering if any of you have any words of advice about things
to avoid. We realize that wood flooring over radiant floor tends to block
the heat and should be limited. We'd love to do large stone tiles, but
that will be out of our budget.

Stairs or ladder down to mechanical room?

I'm thinking it's likely I'll be going to the mechanical room nearly daily to
check on meters and such, especially at first. The lazy bone in me would
like to have stairs down there, which we could probably situate under the stairs
going to the second floor. That would make the room long. The other
option would be to put a ladder down there from the bathroom, which would make
it more cramped feeling to get down there, and might make it harder to move
things to and from it during install, and such -- not to mention the occasional
trip to empty out the compost chamber.

I would much prefer stairs, but am not closed to the idea of a ladder.
Thoughts?

Dome-vault; "high tunnel" for winter building

In our Safe Haven Villages meeting Friday, I got a lot of great input for the building of our home.

Based on that and subsequent input, here's a sketch of the side view of the design I'm presently favoring.

The earth bag walls go straight up with periodic buttresses along the horizontal length. At 8 feet up will be the floor joists, then the straight earth bag walls will end up another two feet. At that point will start the 10-foot radius concrete dome, which will have insulation around it. So the parabolic, catenary arch has been nixed. We're still sticking with the slight arch as the house goes east and west, concave to the north to help the house resist the backfill. Torg also recommended having anchors out in the back-fill, tied to the earth bag wall. The east and west ends of the house will still be rounded. Torg pointed out that having the north wall convex to the backfill would tend to wall failure, whereas having the north side concave to the backfill would tend to the earth packing the wall tighter -- the arch principle.

Torg suggested that I not use any cement in the earth bags, saying that cement will crack in the event of an earthquake or settling, whereas rammed earth in the earth bags will just “reanneal”.


Regarding most of our building time being through the winder, per the 180-days provided by the 1031 roll-over, John Day suggested that I use a "high tunnel" cover over the site. This could entail using pvc pipe with plastic overlaid, and some kind of heater inside, e.g. propane, augmented with a rocket stove. This would enable us to build through freezing temperatures outside.

I'm wondering if this is a plausible approach. How much PVC pipe and plastic will that require; and how hard will that temporary shelter be to build? How much energy will it take to heat to prevent freezing?

Another question I have regards storage. What would be the best way to store my building supplies and other things while we are building?

Torg said that even with the compact earth, not using cement, we would want to keep the structure above freezing so that the wetted earth can properly dry.

In addition to his other skills, Torg also is an architect (not presently licensed in Utah). He said he could draw up our plans, including the electrical, plumbing (including rainwater capture, cisterns, and compost tank for the main restroom), and engineering aspects; and he has an associate who is a licensed Engineer in Utah, who could then sign off on the plans.

I'll need to decide what appliances and how many will be AC versus DC for each room, to determine how many lines to run to that room. In earth bag construction, the wiring and plumbing is laid down as you go. You don't want to run conduit, because the metal tends to bend from the compacting process.

One of the things the community is talking about getting right away is a track hoe for excavation, road building, back filling etc. By the time we rent a track hoe for the various homes we want to build on the site, we will have paid for the track hoe; and we can get our money back out of the track hoe when we're done.

That sounds nice, except that up front we are strapped for cash, so I would rather rent at first. Aaron N. knows two people with track hoes.

Forms & guides for 20-foot wide parabolic earth bag vault

Below is some correspondence with Owen Geiger, professional earth bag builder. Also, near the bottom, is some earlier correspondence in which I mull over the impossibility of building an earth bag home for my family of 6 in just one month in the Spring (2010) after the freezing weather is behind us; then realize that I'll have to plan on purchasing the materials, then build.

In the most recent corresdence (near the top), Owen's comments, received the morning after I posted this, are indicated in red.


After writing the below, I bumped into the Owen-Torg correspondence regarding Nubian technique for building Catenary arches using stabilized earth blocks.

I found the following page http://www.earth-auroville.com/index.php?nav=menu&pg=earthauroville&id1=4 which has a lot of photos that resemble the paramecium plan we're contemplating.


In particular, here's a photo of the Earth Institute which has a fair resemblance to what our finished home might look like.


except ours would be made of earth bags and would not be straight but curved along its length/ and ours would not have square walls on the exterior, and the ends of our vault would be rounded like a half-beehive.

Perhaps we could use the ends as the Nubian form and move forward from there first.

Compressed earth block (CEB) vaults: These vaults require skilled, experienced masons. It's not something you can learn overnight. Building CEB vaults on a curved house would be very tricky. Plus, they are better suited to mild climates. You want an insulated roof for Utah. Note: the current design lacks adequate space for insulation.

Instead of CEB vaults, I recommend ferro-cement or nylon cement vaults with about R-40 insulation: http://www.angelfire.com/in2/manythings/TEXT/NYLON-CEMENT.htm (tech info near bottom of article) This makes it relatively simple to add dormer vaults, eyebrows over windows, curved end walls, etc. using almost any curve you want. At this point, this looks like the best 2nd story system for you.

Make a 6" reinforced concrete bond beam for floor joitss to sit on. Embed upright sections of rebar for the vault.

It's best to make rebar trusses: http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/projects/shop.htm (see last 3 photos)

Bend the rebar around a jig so they're all the same size and shape. Then tie these long, curved trusses to the short pieces in your bond beam. Then add perpendicular rebar and mesh.

Here are some interesting scaffolding pictures (no forms, just guides [possible with brick]):






And here's a couple of photos demonstrating the strength of the catenary arch.






===============

Hi Owen,

Yes, I would appreciate a summary of recommendations.
Okay, let's decide on the basic building system first.

We plan on using a ~10% concrete mix in our external bags and that they will be hardening as we go up, no more than two or three courses in a day.

Would you agree that with 10% concrete mix, that the first eight feet, which barely tip inward, will be strong enough to support the beams for the solarium roof/deck and the second floor?
Yes, no problem.

How far apart should these beams be? How big (e.g. minimum) should they be? Will they need any reinforcement?
I think you're referring to floor joists. These are typically TJI joists set 16" apart. You can go 20' span with certain brands/models of 12" of TJIs. Are you still planning a block or CEB wall down the length of the house? This means you could use 10" TJIs and would eliminate the awkward flex in 20' spans.

I've got a question. Will the bags need to be protected from rain, once they are in place, before they are sprayed and finished on the exterior?
Yes. You'll need to protect them from sunlight with tarps until you can get a coat of plaster on, even though rain is not a big concern (because they're stabilized). That's why I recommended spraying gunnite in stages. You don't want lots of tarps flapping around for months.

We were planning on 20-inch bags from Cal-Earth for the vault. Will that be thick enough, or should we use thicker bags. Does Cal-Earth make anything thicker than 20 inches?
Not sure what sizes they have. 20" is a good size.

I'm thinking that going up 8 feet that we'll be pretty much okay without much reinforcement, form-wise, for the first floor. Then maybe we could go ahead and install the second floor to stand on and put forms on for going up higher from there on the exterior walls.
That sounds good. We just need to work out the details on the 2nd story forms and building method.

What do you think about Tim's suggestion to build the interior walls as we go up, to help support the exterior walls?
Yes. This is a good way. You can overlap the corners so they interlock.

Sterling


----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Geiger
To: Sterling D. Allan
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:15 PM


Hi Sterling,

It all depends on the details: distance between supporting walls, what the supporting walls are made of (earthbag?), slope/shape of parabola, stabilized or unstabilized soil, how many guides, how strong the guides are, etc.

It sounds like a lot of guesswork to me. You could get up to 8 feet high and suddenly the walls start to lean and sag between support walls. And then what do you do? You'd have to tear everything apart and start over. It doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

Khalili is the only one who's done this, and he used forms throughout. And Kelly thinks he used earthbags only so far up and then poured concrete on top. The vaulted school in the Philippines used concrete on top, too. http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/projects/school.htm

Kelly Hart's elliptical dome collapsed, and the Om Dome (world's largest earthbag dome) started to lean in and had to be rebuilt. These were built by talented people, but they misjudged what can happen with tons of weight teetering in the air.
http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/projects/omdome.htm

So I still think it's possible, but all the details have to be worked out very carefully. And I don't know anyone who can give you 100% assurance on this -- not me or anyone else, because it hasn't been done before.

I can write a summary of recommendations if you'd like.

Owen

--- On Thu, 11/19/09, Sterling D. Allan wrote:



[...]:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Hall"
To: "Sterling D. Allan"
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: 180 days over end of April; Re: Parabolic Arch better; change convex to the south


Aloha Sterling,
As far as building forms we are going to build interior walls that
will hold wall roof in place, you have at least four walls from front
to rear. we only go no more than three rows of bags per day if we are
lucky. we only need guides .

Aloha Tim



----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Geiger
To: Sterling D. Allan
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: 180 days over end of April; Re: Parabolic Arch better; change convex to the south


Hi Stirling,

Just to restate the essentials, you definitely need a form, and it must be very strong. You'll have tons of weight overhead. And yes, do it in sections about 4-8' long and slide the form along.

Here's Kelly Hart's advice on vaults: www.earthbagbuilding.com/faqs/shape.htm#vaults

He cautions against going over 8' wide! I'm convinced you can go much larger, but again, you have to be very careful. It may seem simple in principle until you're right in the middle of it. (Sort of like mountain climbing, where you tell yourself "just keep climbing." But you eventually reach a point where you're in over your head.)

Domes lean into themselves, so they're very stable. Vaults have nothing to lean on and will just suddenly fall over. And, of course, they won't care if someone is standing underneath.

Again, no one has done what you're attempting [...]. Please do more research and, even better, build a demo vault.

Concrete block: Sure, this is an option, but it looks ugly and has huge environmental cost. Anything with high thermal mass will work. Why not introduce something that's natural and beautiful. Ex: you'll never tire of looking at natural patterns/textures created by adobe, pressed earth block or stone.

Owen

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Sterling D. Allan wrote:


From: Sterling D. Allan
Subject: Re: 180 days over end of April; Re: Parabolic Arch better; change convex to the south
To: "Owen Geiger" , "Tim Hall" , "Safe Haven Villages admin egroup"
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 2:26 PM


Hi Owen & Tim & SHV people,

Now that the reality of the 180-day thing has set in, and I'm adjusted to the idea that I'll have to purchase my supplies first and store them, then build, I'm not quite so stressed about being under the gun to finish the house so soon.

We'll have some community funds (hopefully) that I can draw from toward repaying the money I'll be paying up front for the community land.

So back to the questions regarding the Paramecium house design.

I can see how a wall in its earlier stages would not need to be supported, but the steeper the angle goes toward the top, the more the bags are going to want to slough off, and the more the walls are going to want to tip over -- until they meet at the top where they can lean into one another.

I'm wondering how much and how I'll need to provide forms against which the rising walls can lean.

I can see how the bags would not slough off in a beehive shape structure -- I've built several snow forts that way -- but I don't see how the bags would not slough of near the top of the vault construction.

One way to do this would be to complete the arch on one end, over a form, then move that form forward, and complete another arch section. That would prevent longer sections of bag and longer sections of barbed wire; and it would require barbed wire lengths to protrude from the unfinished courses, to tie in to the next section. If these hung down into the inside, then they wouldn't get in the way of spraying the exterior in stages to protect the bags from UV deterioration; and it would enable tarp to cover the unfinished portions without getting shredded by the barbed wire.

Another way to do it would be to build a stick framework over which to build the vault; but that would take a lot of wood. Perhaps I could gather scrap wood from a dilapidated barn or something, then use that as firewood when I'm done.

Either way, I'm wondering how frequent the support needs to be. Maybe as I go up, I could have sheets of plywood that I set in place during the tamping down of the bags, then I can pull those out and move them up for the next course. I would think that after tamping, the slough tendency would be gone, except near the very top. Also, I'm wondering about how much leeway we have in the smoothness of the interior and exterior surfaces. If the plywood is overlapping, so there is a 1/2 - 3/4 inch line, can that be covered by the chink-fill stage? Or is it best to avoid that?

Also, regarding the vertical wall through the middle of the arch in the West end of the home, I would think it would be easier to just make that out of cinderblock. I'm open to using conventional materials in some places. This home will be a hybrid of old, new, future technologies.

Your thoughts?

Sterling


----- Original Message -----
From: Sterling D. Allan
To: Owen Geiger ; Tim Hall ; Safe Haven Villages admin egroup
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 8:14 AM
Subject: 180 days over end of April; Re: Parabolic Arch better; change convex to the south


Hi Owen,

Thanks for the input.

When you suggest a wood form for the vault during construction, maybe you can elaborate what that would entail. How frequent would the support need to be? Are you talking a form that would fill the entire interior during construction, or one that would be moved along, completing from one end to the other (using rice bags rather than long length tubes from Cal-Earth)?

As for spraying the walls as we go, what kind of company am I looking for? You're not talking shotcrete are you?

As for the middle, straight wall, isn't the compressed earth block (CEB) similar to concrete forms except that with concrete you get to have anchors between the forms which you later break off the ends that protrude from the concrete. Wouldn't that be a herculean challenge to create a form that tall and wide with no anchor between. I've not studied the earth CEB method.

The thing that has me most nervous about all this is the very shore time we have to work. I had thought that we had 45 days from closing to identify a property, then 180 days after that to finish spending the money for the 1031 exchange. However, Susan informs me that we have 180 days from closing (Oct. 30) to spend the money; which means we have until the end of April; and in Utah, early April is still hits intermittent freezing; so with building season starting with a few days in March, we would barely have a month of time to launch this Earth Bag construction. During the freezing season we could do the permitting, well-digging (if we go that route), excavation, doorway and window form building, form building.

I'm just not comfortable with the idea of buying everything before building and hoping we have enough, and not having those funds to draw on for the labor help we'll need.

And we're attempting a scale that pushes the envelope for this type of construction which even in its more tried form has but barely penetrated into Utah. The bureaucratic hoops could be daunting as well.

The learning curve for me is huge too. I'm venturing into all kinds of unknown territory:
- earthbag is new to me as of 1.5 months ago
- rainwater capture: I haven't yet looked into the particulars
- bottle/can walls: I haven't yet looked into the particulars
- earth floor: barely know about it
- earth bag plumbing and electricity: barely know about it
- earth home insulation and waterproofing: barely know

I should have my head fully wrapped around these things in order to properly design the home, which is one of the first things that needs to be done.

I can't help but think that we're not being realistic. We're trying to do too much in too short a period of time.

I'm thinking it might be best to shift to something less exotic.

Sterling

----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Geiger
To: Sterling D. Allan
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Parabolic Arch better; change convex to the south


Hi Sterling,

I thought you were going to use a wood form to build the vault. Now it sounds like you're going to use a rope guide to line up each course. You definitely need a wood form or the walls will fall over during construction. Vaults are very tricky, even small ones. You're attempting to build possibly the largest earthbag vault in the world... use extreme caution.

Interior 12" wall: Narrow earthbag walls are not very stable during construction. I recommend adobe or compressed earth block (CEB) for this wall. This will also produce a straighter, nicer looking wall that won't need plaster.

Curving the house toward the sun is the best, I agree.

Also, create extra room at the top of the stairs, in the bathtub, etc. People need adequate space to feel comfortable.

I'd start looking for a company who can spray the earthbag walls. This will greatly speed things up. The best way is to spray the exterior in stages so you don't have to keep everything tarped. (Tarps want to blow away in the wind.)

Owen