Hi Sterling,
My comments below in red.
Owen
--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Sterling D. Allan wrote:
From: Sterling D. Allan
Subject: Re: building questions
To: "Owen Geiger" <strawhouses {at} yahoo.com>
Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 10:57 PM
Hi Owen,
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Would it be okay if I posted our
dialogue or excerpts in a blog? [linking to your site(s)] Sure,
why not. [...]
I had been told by Tim that the way
the half pipe is constructed in the earth bag tradition
(Cal-Earth) is to create a form, then do the compact/cement earth
around the form to a thickness of around 6-8 inches. The
forms are 8-10 feet long, and are moved down, then forward with
each new segment, so the protrusions such as beams would be
inserted between sections.
This is called an earthbag
vault. I am familiar with Cal-Earth's work, but
unfortunately Nadir published very few details about his work.
You'd have to attend his $2,000 workshops to learn details. [...]
Do you know the people over at Cal-Earth? No
I don't. Is there someone there I could talk to
about the half-pipe and doughnut portion of things? They'll
probably charge you a small fortune if they even answer your
email. Perhaps the "hole" portion of the
roof would be problematic when it comes to rain and freezing, so
I would need to externally form a flat portion over the hole so
that rain goes off that portion. Hmmm. It's not
sounding very enticing to me. A 20' diameter room isn't
big enough for living room, kitchen, and dining. I was
thinking I could get larger by going with that shape. I'm
open to alternatives, including doing hybrid methods -- e.g.
rammed tire for one portion, earth bag for another, etc.
You can buy metal dome-shaped
frames and stack the bags around it. This has not been
done before to my knowledge, but it should add enough support
for a 30' diameter dome or so, especially if the bags are filled
with lightweight material. Again, this is untested and
just a guess, so please be careful.
It looks like I need to get out some
clay and start playing with different shapes to form my house in a
model before building it for keeps. Modeling
can be very helpful. Also, start small and add on later.
I would start out with 1-3 small and medium sized domes to get the
hang of things. This would provide basic shelter while the
rest of the house was being built. This is where you need to
be careful with building officials. Finish one section
(bedroom, kitchen/living, bath) and get your certificate of
occupancy. (Do not show them the entire plan that's on your
website.) Then you can add on at a more leisurely pace.
Continuously working on an unfinished house for years can create
problems with building officials.
As for location, we're pretty
committed to locating here in Sanpete County, Utah; so we'll have
to put up with whatever bureaucracy they will throw at us.
There is at least one person there who has a solar home and would
thus be more amenable to innovation. Then
I recommend talking to them as soon as possible. Many areas
don't allow alternative building methods. Sure, there's a
loophole in the code that supposedly allows for it, but they can
make life so difficult and expensive that's it's not practical.
For instance, they can require any number of engineering tests to
prove what you're proposing is safe.
Sterling
----- Original Message ----- From: Owen Geiger
To: Sterling D. Allan
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 3:54 AM
Subject: metal roofing over half pipe
Sterling,
One option is to put curved metal roofing over the half
pipe. You could glue/shoot (Ramset http://www.ramset.com/)
wood sleepers on the half pipe every 24" and then
screw metal roofing to them. You'd want at least
several inches of foam between the sleepers. This
could be sprayed on in order to seal leaks and fill
everything uniformly. Metal roofing can be custom
ordered to any curve you want.
This would create a strong insulated roof with metal
roofing for roof water collection. They make heavy
duty metal roofing that will last 100 years.
Also note, arched door and window openings in the half
pipe are strongest and will allow for larger openings.
Also, I have a huge collection of renewable energy links.
Giant, as in every possible system available. But I
would need to know what resources are available. For
biogas, for example, you'd need a source of manure.
Are you going to raise cows? Or maybe you could grow
sunflower seeds, etc. and press the oil. There are
many possibilities. There's a new community scale
concentrated solar dish for around $75,000 that uses top
of the line Sterling engines.
Owen
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----- Original Message -----
From: Owen Geiger
To: Sterling D. Allan
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: building questions
Hello Sterling,
You have some fascinating ideas and I'll gladly share what
I know.
First, it looks like you are using precast concrete half
pipe. Is this correct? I've never seen this
done before! So the main section of the house is a
long tube? Are you sure half pipe is available in
this size? How will you cut holes? How will
you insert roof poles?
You need to find some way to insulate the exterior
surface. This would keep the thermal mass on the
inside. Plus, it would be good to cover the inside
with something to improve acoustics. Concrete looks,
feels and sounds terrible. At the minimum I would
use a heavy drywall texture.
Earthbag domes at each end are fine. The largest
safest diameter is around 20' interior diameter. The
world's largest is 24' interior diameter and they ran into
some problems and had to rebuild part of it.
Anything over 20' will be dangerous and difficult.
See Om Dome: www.earthbagbuilding.com/projects/omdome.htm
Egress regulations and interpretations of code vary from
region to region. Ask your local code officials what
they require. Which reminds me to tell your group
about the importance of selecting a building site with
minimal building codes! I can't emphasize this
enough. Areas with stringent codes will cause
construction costs to inflate many thousands of dollars.
Some rural areas only require permits for septic systems
and give you total control over how to build.
Imagine if every house cost $10,000 extra. That's a
lot of money taken out of your community that could be put
to better use.
I'll put other responses below in red.
Owen
--- On Wed, 11/4/09, Sterling D. Allan <sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com>
wrote:
From: Sterling D. Allan <sterlingda@pureenergysystems.com>
Subject: building questions
To: strawhouses@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 9:01 PM
Hi Owen,
Here are a few questions
to start out.
I was planning to do the
earth bag, beehive-like construction on the east and
west sides of the home, with the half-pipe
construction running between them.
Questions:
- Is the general
layout as I propose feasible? If not, what would
need to be changed? Looks
good for the most part. You're showing two
domes on the left that overlap. Actually,
they'll sit next to each other like on the right
side.
- If I have the hall
running through the solarium, instead of one along
the north wall as well, will that satisfy code
egress rules (if I have the window and door on the
same wall?) I
would put the hall through the solarium. (If
you code allows.) The hall on the north is
mostly wasted space. This would put a window
and door facing south, which brings extra light
into each room.
- I was thinking of
embedding wood beams every 6-10 feet both for
appearance and to form the solarium roof support.
I have been told that the earth bag construction
would not be strong enough to hold those up.
Suggestions? I guess I could just tie the
Solarium to the outside of the half pipe. Earthbags
can hold it, but you'll need to add a concrete
bond beam for the pipe to rest on. If
needed, this study documents bearing capacity of
earthbags: http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/pdf/Daigle_Bryce_C_200809_MScEng.pdf
- In the living room /
kitchen area, I hope to do a pillar in the middle,
arching out to the outside walls, making a
doughnut shape, making for a larger room. Is
that feasible? No
pillars are needed unless you go over 20', which
like I said gets difficult. Not sure what
you mean by a doughnut shape. You mean a
large circular skylight on top? That's no
problem.
- How hard is it to do
water capture from the roof of an earth bag or
half pipe shape? I was planning to have three
cisterns, one on the east, west, and middle of the
home. You
should be able to attach metal gutters to channel
water into the cisterms, no problem. Just
make sure the final roof coating isn't toxic.
- Where could I find
some good info addressing the questions I'm posing
above? YouTube videos, floor plans, principles
explained, plans described? Our
website at http://earthbagbuilding.com/
covers everything related to earthbags. I
would also buy Doni and Kaki's Earthbag Building
book. On the half pipe, you'll have to
network with locals who work with it. I'm
sure they have special tools for cutting,
grinding, etc. You could possibly pay them
by the hour to do all the cuts, as I assume they
have industrial tools for this.
- Would you recommend
that I go watch/participate in construction
underway elsewhere before trying to tackle these
things myself, or would having at least one
experienced person come help me be enough?
Tim Hall is willing to come help for like a month
(for a reasonable fee). http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Tim_Hall
This is the guy
who's building in Hawaii. So yes, someone
like this will be a big help. It all boils
down to basics, but it sure helps to get things
started in the right direction, reduce errors,
speed things up, etc. Everyone who's
planning on building with earthbags should join in
at least 1-2 days to learn as much as they can.
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